Here are two spreadsheets, the first is the results for an Adams-style rotor, the second is the results for a single diametrically magnetised cylinder-magnet.
My Adams-style rotor has magnets arranged N/S, the cylinder magnet is naturally N/S.
Each test involved these steps for each voltage :
1. Spin the rotor up to it's maximum speed.
2. Record the frequency, input current
3. Short-circuit the generator coil.
4. Record the frequency and input current again.
5. Stop the rotor, switch the PSU off and on again, increase the voltage by 0.5 volts and start the new test.
So we get a map of behaviour of the device at various frequencies/RPM's.
The Adams-style rotor, a VHS motor with magnets mounted horizontally around the outside, exhibited some unusual behaviour that the single magnet/no rotor device didn't.
The only difference i can see between a multi-magnet rotor and a single magnet/no rotor device is that, with a single magnet, the time between pole-changes is tiny, whereas with multiple magnets on a rotor we do have a larger time in between pole changes.
The cases of strange behaviour were :
1. After removing the short circuit, the rotor would stabilise at a higher RPM than that which it started at before the SC was applied. This happened at many stages.
2. After removing the short circuit, the rotor didn't slow down at all ! This one surprised me and only happened at one voltage stage but it is repeatable.
3. After applying the SC, the RPM went up in two stages, it went up suddenly and with sharp current-draw decreases. This only happened once.
Both devices had their greatest RPM-up/current-draw down at 16/16.5 volts for the diametric magnet/Adams-style rotor respectively.
I will post videos of both when my girlfriend has stopped watching crappy soaps on TV and won't moan about the noise !
Results of Adams-type rotor :
http://www.mediafire.com/?p4mw890t8unwc75
Results of diametric rotor :
http://www.mediafire.com/?v0hlb9ellahmu50
Cheers,
Gary.
OK, today was interesting :)
I wound a new coil and ran the same voltage-range test, on the rotor-device, the results were fairly similar, here they are :
http://www.mediafire.com/?yx6rttz533a6x7n
But the most interesting part is this, i'm too sleepy to put the diametric magnet through it's paces with the new coil but i thought i'd do a quick, real-world, load test.
I attached a miniature bulb i got from Maplins, i can't remember it's rating.
The bulb lit quite brightly, the frequency/RPM rose and the current draw went down.
Now i'm off to bed :)
I've upped a video of acceleration-under-load rather than just short-circuit.
The rotor speed rises by only a few Hz, and the milliamps only go down by a few but the effect is there and will be amplified with higher impedance coils.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSSOI6Yep_U
Quote from: DeepCut on September 29, 2011, 05:00:49 PM
I've upped a video of acceleration-under-load rather than just short-circuit.
The rotor speed rises by only a few Hz, and the milliamps only go down by a few but the effect is there and will be amplified with higher impedance coils.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSSOI6Yep_U
I does not matter so much if the speed is not rising much.If you can maintain it while you have a load on it then is great.
Now that you can get the effect use 2 or more coils and see what you can get from them.
I am trying to get my RG1 stable and not speeding too much under load. I have not had too much sleep last night and I am very tired.Tonight must go to bed early.
Romero
Yes don't lose out on sleep, very important !
My laminations arrived today.
The performance was not as good as my loose anchor bolts !
Results in spreadsheet here :
http://www.mediafire.com/?zh6s7dwt21wx53h
If you don't have excel installed then get the viewer here :
http://www.microsoft.com/download/en/details.aspx?id=10
Best to all,
DC.
Test results, 500g of 0.25mm, bifilar-wound, series-connected, laminated-core coil.
This coil/core combination overspeeds the rotor when shorted.
Rotor with no coil/core present.
Hz : 450
mA : 443
Rotor with coil/core present, open-circuit.
Hz : 450
mA : 438
Rotor with coil/core persent, short-circuit.
Hz : 455
mA 433
Video here :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=onvYaT-k7yk
Thanks for reading,
DC.
Today i tested the device with mutiple (3) coils.
In these tests the coils are not connected together, they are short-circuited individually.
All coils are bifilar-wound and individually serially-connected, here are their properties :
1.
L : 20 Henries +, more than my meter can read.
R : 406
2.
L : 20 +
R : 402
3.
L : 13.2
R : 390
Coils 1 and 2 were placed opposite each other, North and South of the rotor magnet, so-to-speak, and the third coil was placed in between them, at the East position.
Results of multi-coil tests :
No coils present.
hz : 502
ma : 452
1 coil present open circuit.
hz : 417
ma : 472
1 coil present short circuit.
hz : 505
ma : 445
2 coils present, both open circuit.
hz : 393
ma : 475
2 coils present, both short circuited.
hz : 514
ma : 438
3 coils present, open circuit.
hz : 388
ma : 474
3 coils present, all short-circuited.
hz : 511
ma : 440
I think i understand why two coils outperformed three with my setup.
Because it is a single-magnet rotor, the two coils on opposite sides of the magnet are synchronised in the sense that they both experience the flux change at the same time, whereas the third coil, which is in the middle of the other two, experiences flux-change after the first coil and before the second of the other two coils, so the timing is wrong and possibly fights against the effect from the other two.
I confirmed this by moving the third coil closer to one of the others and performance goes up.
Also, coil three's inductance is 13 Henries vs 20+ Henries and that may contribute to the lack of additional performance benefits.
Obviously the single-magnet design has it's limitations, the physical space required for many coils isn't available and the timing problem, if i'm right about that.
Thane's idea is that, with multiple short-circuited coils, any loaded generator coils that are introduced to the system will have a minimum detrimental effect.
I did a small test with a high current coil in place with two acceleration coils and it accelerated the rotor under load, helping the effect while powering a small light bulb.
I'll be making a multi-magnet rotor now but in the meantime i'll experiment with getting power out of this device, time to order some more high-current wire ;+}
All the best,
DC.
@DeepCut
Excellent, you are on the right track.
Romero
The new test-bed for a multi-magnet setup is now ready :
http://i1235.photobucket.com/albums/...1/DSC01475.jpg
24 neos 10x10mm, N42, 0.52 Tesla going North/South around the rotor.
Same drive coil/circuitry before, a-la-Bedini SSG with the charging component removed.
Wil post results,
DC.
@DeepCut
Your link... not working.
Romero
Oops !
http://i1235.photobucket.com/albums/ff437/deepcut71/DSC01475.jpg
I have a question for anyone that knows, when a magnet crosses a coil, there is a change in voltage-polarity and current-direction, this is how we get AC, but, does it matter whether it's a N or S pole ? I know we get more power from N/S arrangements because the change in field is bigger, but does a S pole cause a different volta/current cahnge than a N pole or are they both the same ?
Cheers,
Gary.
Quote from: DeepCut on November 14, 2011, 01:52:57 PM
I have a question for anyone that knows, when a magnet crosses a coil, there is a change in voltage-polarity and current-direction, this is how we get AC, but, does it matter whether it's a N or S pole ? I know we get more power from N/S arrangements because the change in field is bigger, but does a S pole cause a different volta/current cahnge than a N pole or are they both the same ?
Cheers,
Gary.
I don't know the answer but John Bedini seems to use the N all the time.
some people are thinking that N is stronger but I believe both are the same, I have never experienced any difference
Romero
Thanks, i've found the answer. There is no differencfe in voltage-polarity or current-direction, N and S poles do the same thing.
What creates AC is the magnetic field etnering the coil, and the field exiting the coil, because it's cutting the wire in the opposite direction.
I found out that what i was told about AC was wrong, i did my own experiments to find out that a North pole entering/exiting a coil gives an OPPOSITE voltage-polarity/current-direction change to a South pole.
I now have a multi-magnet rotor, driven by a DC electric motor.
Input power is 6.3 VDC @ 520 mA = 3.276 Watts.
Output power (with two coils in series) is 325 VDC @ 12 mA = 3.9 Watts.
Output power (with three coils) is 450 VDC @ 12mA = 5.4 Watts.
I want to self-run it but i don't have the right transformer to do so.
Does anyone know a good way of stepping down voltage ?
Does the fact that my frequency is ~ 600 Hz make a problem ?
I am in unknown (to me) territory now ...
Cheers,
Gary.
You could take a microwave transformer, take the primary off and wind your own for the voltage you need. Of course that winding will then be the secondary. It wont take many turns. I made one before to put out 12v. I think it was under twenty turns. Just use insulated wire so it doesn't get nicked up feeding it through the core. Not the easiest to wind but for the few turns you need, shouldn't be too bad.
Quote from: DeepCut on December 07, 2011, 08:05:59 PM
I found out that what i was told about AC was wrong, i did my own experiments to find out that a North pole entering/exiting a coil gives an OPPOSITE voltage-polarity/current-direction change to a South pole.
I now have a multi-magnet rotor, driven by a DC electric motor.
Input power is 6.3 VDC @ 520 mA = 3.276 Watts.
Output power (with two coils in series) is 325 VDC @ 12 mA = 3.9 Watts.
Output power (with three coils) is 450 VDC @ 12mA = 5.4 Watts.
I want to self-run it but i don't have the right transformer to do so.
Does anyone know a good way of stepping down voltage ?
Does the fact that my frequency is ~ 600 Hz make a problem ?
I am in unknown (to me) territory now ...
Cheers,
Gary.
Hi Deepcut,
Your result is great. congratulation !, have you tried with adding some more pick up coils. will the input remain not increase ?
Rgds,
M.E
I've been testing the new setup, with occasional pauses for sleep and food ;+}
It seems that it generates more power than it uses but i will have to wait until i get a scope (new year).
Here's a vid :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBDOOSOhbz0
Thanks for reading,
DC.
Hi DC:
Thay here, I just had a thought that may help you
down convert your voltage. First it may be necessary
to rewind your coils (Ghasp). But if done, half them by
doubleing the wire to make it put out around 220 volts
with possibly double the MA.
Since you are what sounds like UK, a SMPS that puts
out say 18 volts for a laptop could then use a variable
voltage regulator to feed the motor with. Not to mention
having access to the 18v for other stuff as well. ???
I remember feeding a power supply for an old pc from a
bedini and it actually did output power. Only 10v on the
12v side but it did do it. Just had to connect it to the cap
inside to make it work.
Something to think about.
T
Quote from: thaelin on December 08, 2011, 05:31:08 PM
Hi DC:
Thay here, I just had a thought that may help you
down convert your voltage. First it may be necessary
to rewind your coils (Ghasp). But if done, half them by
doubleing the wire to make it put out around 220 volts
with possibly double the MA.
Since you are what sounds like UK, a SMPS that puts
out say 18 volts for a laptop could then use a variable
voltage regulator to feed the motor with. Not to mention
having access to the 18v for other stuff as well. ???
I remember feeding a power supply for an old pc from a
bedini and it actually did output power. Only 10v on the
12v side but it did do it. Just had to connect it to the cap
inside to make it work.
Something to think about.
T
Hi thaelin,
This is exactly what I sugested yesterday to deepcut :)
Don't need to open the psu to connect to the internal capacitor, it works just fine applying dc at the ac terminals, I have used it myself with a computer psu and laptop charger and worked very well.
I am not very sure about the amps from deepcut generator, maybe too small. Better lower voltage and a bit more amps. These power supply are working good from as low as 100volt imput and up to 150volt.
Regards,
Romero
A bit more on this. I have been snapping up a bunch
of the laptop supplies and such. These are just great
for this purpose. I can use them directly off a gen set
that puts out say 200v. I remember hektor saying to
grab them while they last cause as soon as they figure
out what we are doing with them, that will change.
When ever I get a day off again, I have a lot of coils to
wind and then a good run or two. My laser cut frame
turned out perfect so I can work with it. More later as
I can.
DC, keep up the great work. That is how we progress.
thay
Thanks Thay and Romero.
Unforunately the coils don't exhibit the AUL effect very strongly.
I tried a small coil (50 grammes instead of 500 grammes) the other day and the effect was HUGE.
The wire is an unknown gauge but i think it's maybe 0.3mm, my digital calipers should arrive on Monday then i will know what gauge the wire is because the performance was very impressive, rotor speed rose by about 100 Hz and current draw dropped by about 100 mA.
I sacrificed one of the big coils today to wind smaller coils with it but the resistance of 0.25mm wire is too high so that was a waste of time.
I think i will now go Muller style with small coils because it's costing too much money buying kilos of wire and it's all the same effect being put to use ...
Onward and upward !
Small coils work very well.
I've ordered another kilo of 0.3mm wire, some more laminations for the cores as well as new endplates so that i can use smaller bearings and get even higher frequencies.
Should be ready for testing in 6 or 7 days.
Cheers,
DC.
Looking in to ordering a 3D print of my rotor design, then the rotor and shaft are all in one piece and the shaft press-fits into the bearings.
Quote from: DeepCut on December 19, 2011, 07:38:15 PM
Looking in to ordering a 3D print of my rotor design, then the rotor and shaft are all in one piece and the shaft press-fits into the bearings.
how many magnets on your rotor? can you elaborate a little more...
Hi Romero,
The rotor will have holes for 24 magnets.
I'm only using 12 at the moment, going N/S.
It is being driven by a 12v 6w DC motor (brushed) :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBDOOSOhbz0&list=UUDz1_S1kOhi9nYZB0KV7znA&index=1&feature=plcp
I've been having accuracy problems with my CNC guy, this means there is a slight rattle where the ebarings meet the holding plates so i have to tighten things vertically so that the holding plate pushes down on the motor and this reduces RPM and tightens the whole movement.
I may not get a rotor 3D printed as i think it may cost ?70 or so, i may just order some accurately-cut sheets and hold the motor in with them, they will be tight enough horizontally and not push down on the rotor.
Cheers,
DC.
Attached is the rotor model in Google Sketchup :
http://sketchup.google.com/intl/en/download/index.html
Turns out to be hugely expensive to 3D print as lots of support material would be needed, i've had quotes ranging from 200 to 2,200 pounds !!!
I am trying to do away with threaded brass rod and nuts and washers.
I've just tested an aluminium shaft, which i froze. After freezing it shrinks then i mount the rotor and the bearings and it holds really well after expanding at room temperature.
Noticed an odd thing today. I had a 100g coil, 50 Ohms, couldn't measure inductance cuase my meter died. The AUL effect was better when, rather than having a bifilar, series-connected, the two seperate windings individually shorted, out-performed the coil as a bifilar, serial-connected. This goes agsiont my intuitin but i can't argue with the numbers.
I need a variable inductor with variable resistance, is there such a thing ? I'm looking at old radio sets.
Learning is food for the soul.
Romero can you tell me what is now updated in this circuit diagram please ?
Thanks,
DC.
Quote from: DeepCut on January 05, 2012, 04:04:21 PM
Romero can you tell me what is now updated in this circuit diagram please ?
Thanks,
DC.
R3 22k make it variable to find the best value for your coil then measure the value and replace with a fixed resistor. You can leave it variable for both resistors but make sure is 0.5watt or more if not will burn quick.
The other circuit posed before using mosfets works good too but the same thing, variable resistors with 0.5 watt or more.
I have not heard many people saying that they tested these 2 circuits... for the simplicity of the circuit you save having another coil (eg: Bedini) or a hall sensor.These circuit (the one I posted, I am not sure about the other one) will need no external power to run aditional coils in a system.
Best regards,
Romero
Thanks :)
I notice it has a power input also, do i need a battery for this ?
Quote from: DeepCut on January 06, 2012, 03:28:59 PM
I notice it has a power input also, do i need a battery for this ?
if is the only driver coil in the setup then you need power to it if not all you need is a capacitor with the right value... you need to test and see what is the best value for you, don't use too much, start with 100uf then add more in parallel...
If is the main driver coil then you must use power and forward the bemf to the next circuit that uses no other power input. Make sure there are no coils to fire at the same time.
If you have multiple coils in the system only one coil will have external power then second coil will also get the bemf from the main coil and all other coils will have no external power, those coils will charge capacitors with a half cycle and power back the coil in the other half cycle.
Based on my old experiments I found that I need minimum 7 coils in the system to make it selfrun or close to that point.
Show me what you got now in the system and I might be able to help you more or we can even meet one day, you said previously you are like one mile distance...
Regards,
Romero
Thanks very much for that. I have only made two circuits ever so i'm like a baby when it comes to these things.
My last parts arrive on Tuesday so i will show you when i have something made.
Have a good weekend :)
Hello my fellow builders/esses :)
So, the continuing story of DeepCut's obssession with acceleration under load.
I could write a thousand words but instead, the more turns the better.
This acceleration-under-load (AUL) effect is NOT dependent merely on the rise-time of the coil.
I base this assumption on simple mechanical maths. If we are merely retarding the CEMF then the effect would rise and fall in a sine wave, we would have DUL frequencies as well as AUL frequencies.
But, on the bench, the higher the frequency, the better the effect.
So, in my baby-mind of electronics (i am not educated therein) it is not just the rise time, so frequency has an effect also.
Then i learn about inductive reactance, how the realtionship between the inductance of the inductor and it's resistance changes with frequency ...
We HAVE the key. Our dear Romero showed us, with small coils (i still don't understand).
My best coil so far, when presented to the rotor, only reduced the speed from 486Hz to 481Hz, and it only increased the current draw by 5mA.
Get the coil that overspeeds the rotor, push that performance graph of the high impedance coil .,..
DC :)
@DeepCut
...but the best coil is the one that is maintaining the speed (invisible to the system), going up brings many other problems.
Romero
Quote from: Romero on February 24, 2013, 01:48:35 AM
@DeepCut
...but the best coil is the one that is maintaining the speed (invisible to the system), going up brings many other problems.
Romero
That best coil is very hard to produce...2 years until now still looking for that coil... ;D
OK, i have a coil that has no effect on the system.
Also, when i use it as an aircore, it still accelerates.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9X7tqNCZqM
Cheers,
DC.